Vaccine Misinformation and Our Pets with Dr. Bradley

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

dog, vaccines, animals, pet, misinformation, people, veterinary medicine, vaccinated, anti, parvo virus, veterinarians, vet, pet owners, vaccination, heartworm, rabies, veterinarian, pandemic, bradley, medicine

SPEAKERS

Shawn Walker, Michael Simeone, Laura Davis, Dr. Kelsey Bradley

Laura Davis  00:00

Hey everyone, this is Laura, editor of Misinfo Weekly. Before we get into the show, we wanted to provide a content warning. This episode contains a brief mention of suicide. We will include the timestamp of the section as well as resources to get help in the show notes. Please take care of yourselves. And thanks for listening.

Content Warning: This episode contains a brief mention of suicide from 40:45 - 41:07.

National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 
https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/
1-800-273-8255

Michael Simeone  00:18

This is Misinfo Weekly, a somewhat weekly program about misinformation in our time. Misinfo Weekly is made by the Unit for Data Science and Analytics at Arizona State University Library.  

This week, we'll be talking about the anti-vaxxer movement for animals. Now, people know that this podcast is a friend of animals. Not only do we have our assistant producer, Justice, the dog make interventions from time to time, but also we are fans of the show Paw Patrol or at least fans of studying the social media impact of the show Paw Patrol. But to talk about the anti-vaxxer movement and animals, we have a Veterinarian with us, Dr. Kelsey Bradley. Dr. Bradley, how are you? 

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  01:01
I'm doing well. Thanks so much. 

Michael Simeone  01:03
And so what we'll do today is talk through this kind of peculiar world of anti-vaxxers for pets and animals that I think a lot of folks might not necessarily be keen to or track that much. But we want to get into it and then think through what we can learn from it. Overall, when we're thinking about misinformation and our time, and how to how to be better about sorting through misinformation and trying to figure out what it all means. So Shawn, you're pretty familiar with the anti-vaxxer movement in humans? Could you say a little bit about anti-vaxxers? And where that all kind of came from?

Shawn Walker  01:37
So a lot of our discussions around anti-vaxxers have occurred around the plandemic series of videos, the second of which recently came out a few weeks ago. And in those videos, there's a claim that the vaccinations, the ways that vaccinations are created, that that actually makes us more susceptible to the Coronavirus or COVID-19.

Michael Simeone  02:01
Yeah, and this is this, this smacks of some earlier stuff, right? I feel like people have always been suspicious of vaccines for as long as vaccines have been around. But there have been a couple of landmark moments in anti-vaccine, is that right?

Shawn Walker  02:16
Yes. And you're gonna ask me to list them and I can't so. 

Michael Simeone  02:19
No, that's okay. I, I'm I'm looking at I think the one that that sticks out, that I know about was the Andrew Wakefield 1998 piece, that I think that linked the MMR vaccine to autism. And this was a kind of locus classicus for anti-vaxxers and that these vaccines would actually interfere with the development of your children.

Shawn Walker  02:41
And this is the sort of famous Lancet paper that was retracted, correct?

Michael Simeone  02:46
Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's right. That's right. I had forgotten that it was published in The Lancet. The Lancet is becoming really, really popular now with the it's publishing a ton of COVID-19 articles. I did not appreciate that that was actually published in The Lancet. They probably don't want that publicized so much now. Yes. So that was a retracted article. And then anti-vaccine since that time, kind of picked up steam with celebrities. What else can you say about an anti-vaccine over the last 20 years?

Shawn Walker  03:14
On the Lancet article, and this link of vaccines to autism, just even though the paper has been retracted, this theory just refuses to go away, it continues to recirculate. And we see that theory kind of recirculated and twisted around with COVID-19, and plandemic videos too. And there's also around some religious communities. You know, we've seen outbreaks of measles and such, say, at Disneyland, for example, because of children that weren't vaccinated visiting Disneyland. So in general, the anti-vaxxer community uses a lot of the same techniques that we've discussed in the past, around the circulation of misinformation, around presenting some pseudoscience, presenting anecdotal evidence, and discarding actual scientific evidence. And then also continuing to circulate sort of previous scientific information that's now been corrected or updated, and using that as a basis to say, well, vaccination is problematic, because see, they were wrong with this Lancet study, and so that means we shouldn't trust them.

Michael Simeone  04:22
So in some ways, it's kind of playing both sides of it. We trust the scientists, we trust one scientist and then being retracted or are disgraced. It's actually evidence of their credibility. But we don't want to trust some of the other science.

Shawn Walker  04:39
And we use this idea of retraction or whenever we have new science that comes out that goes against some previous information, we then use that not to say, well, that information was incorrect, and we have updated science. We use that information to then make the case that well, that information, they just want to hide, they, that information was actually correct, but it's sort of too costly to pharmaceutical companies or the truth, they don't want that to be out there. So that was retracted. Not because the science has been updated in the in the science was wrong at that moment in time, but because it's a conspiracy to hide the actual truth to the public,

Michael Simeone  05:15
Right, right. So it's not just about the science. And I feel like if this were plandemic, there would be some ominous background right now as we're talking with, like clouds and lightning, or, or crowds riding in a city for no reason.

Shawn Walker  05:28
Probably some footage of police coming in.

Michael Simeone  05:31
Probably some stock footage. Yes, yes to Office actual footage. But let's, let's talk about animals and anti-vaccine. And so, Shawn, you first kind of raised this issue a little while back. What was your first experience or what what was one of your kind of early experiences with animals and anti-vaccine?

Shawn Walker  05:51
So I ran into this community because Justice, our sort of popular…

Michael Simeone
His official position is assistant producer. 

Shawn Walker
Yes. And so basically, he barks whenever we talk about misinformation. So Justice happens to be what's known as a Double Merle Aussie. So that means that he was born deaf and blind, due to the breeding of two Merle parents. And whether why they do this is because they wanted to create certain colors of Australian shepherds, also Collies and some other breeds have similar genetic issues. And they shouldn't breed these parents together. And these two recessive genes, so if a puppy gets the two recessive genes, then they have a high likelihood of ending up either deaf or blind, and Justice won the lottery. So he's both deaf and blind from birth, because of this genetic defect and the poor breeding that happened. And like any good dog dad, after adopting Justice, I joined a whole bunch of Facebook groups that are related to Australian shepherds and Double Merle dogs. And in learning about Justice, and the Double Merle gene and other things, trying to figure out, you know, what's safe? Is there, are there things that I treatments that Justice shouldn't have? Are there vaccinations that Justice shouldn't have, and those kinds of things. So in these communities, there are some folks that they bring out this argument that, you know, these dogs are very susceptible to chemicals, so you shouldn't put any chemicals in their bodies. So they can't be vaccinated for rabies. They can't have heartworm medication, because that might harm them. They can't take flea medication, because that also might harm them. And so this is was my first entry into the dog anti-vax community, which I was surprised was very similar to some of the arguments, they're not exactly the same. But some of the arguments that are used in the human anti-vaxxer community.

Michael Simeone  07:39
Okay. So, and this is an interesting question, because it it's one of those things where I don't know if people who are anti-vaxxers for animals actually go to the doctor. But, Dr. Bradley, do you encounter people at your hospital? Who are anti-vaxxers for their pets? Or do you think they tend to lay low and you might not ever see that?

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  08:01
I think that in general, anti-vaxxers for animals, and specifically, companion animals are not as prevalent as anti-vaxxers for humans. And I don't know, the relationship between people who are anti-vaxxers for, let's say, their own children or themselves and if they feel the same way about their pets. Or flipping it the other way around, are people who feel very strongly about their pets not being vaccinated or at causing negative effects in their pets. I don't know if they feel the same way about their children. So I think there it is a, it would be a good thing to try and figure out the reason why people are either anti-vaxxers versus humans versus pets.

Michael Simeone  08:51
So what you're saying is we shouldn't just assume, that just because someone has an anti-vaxxer for their pet that they are an anti-vaxxer for themselves?

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  08:59
Correct. And the reason why I say this is because many of the people that I have had as clients who want to have a discussion about vaccines, and is it safe for their pet, or, you know, we go down this road of talking about vaccines and what is needed. I don't think that there's the same level of distrust with medicine, as I feel there is with human anti-vaxxers.

Michael Simeone  09:27
So that's very interesting, because a lot of times in our, in some of our conversations about what drives anti-vaccine, or what drives medical conspiracies, there's a certain distrust of medical institutions. But if I'm hearing you, right, that people don't view medical institutions for people in the same way that they view medical institutions for animals, they don't just see them all as the same thing, necessarily. 

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  09:53
Yeah, I think that there is a general trust with the public towards Veterinarians. Many of the discussions that I've had with clients, they come with an open mind, and they genuinely have questions about if this will harm their pet or not. I think a lot of the people who decide not to vaccinate their pet, it is for a reason other than distrust in the vaccine.

Michael Simeone  10:25
So what would be some other reasons that someone would would think that way?

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  10:27
I would say a lot of, a lot of it comes down to their pet's, interaction with other animals or other people. For example, this is mainly true with cats. Many people who have cats are, you know, their cats are inside all the time. They aren't boarded or groomed or anything. I still think that there's a benefit to vaccinating them against certain diseases. But they may not feel the same way.

Shawn Walker  10:56
In some ways, there are a host of potentially complicated reasons why someone might come to you and say, ' Well, wait, do I really need to vaccinate my, you know, my cat or my dog?' because they're not worried about their dog or cat getting autism necessarily from the vaccine, right?

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  11:13
That's true. I would say most of the time when people are asking about vaccines, they are coming to the conversation with finances, on their mind.

Michael Simeone  11:25
So it seems like there's, in some ways, two halves of the pet anti-vaxxer world. And I hesitate to even label them as the same. But it sounds like right, or some base level skepticism of vaccines, sometimes expressed by clients who are trying to do the best thing for their dog, or cat. And then it seems like there's some other stuff going on out there where they might not ever come in to see the vet at all.

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  11:56
I would say that's true. And I think that to your point, just a minute ago, Shawn, I have had conversations with people about vaccines and animals causing autism. It is not extremely common. But it is interesting to note that the study that vaccines cause autism that was debunked, that you guys mentioned, at the beginning of this episode, does sometimes spill over into the pet world, which is interesting, because Autism is not a disease that we recognize in dogs.

Michael Simeone  12:35
Yeah, and we have, you know, just looking through a couple different Facebook communities, without calling them out by name. It's not uncommon to see hundreds of 1000s, if not a million likes or followers for this kind of content. And sometimes it's it seems like it comes in a couple different forms. One is in the form of, you know, like, naturalistic are just kind of branding as being very naturalistic. And some of it is a little bit more antagonistic towards towards tradition, what what I could call, or what I'm calling, I don't know if it's right, traditional or more conventional animal medicine, or science based animal medicine.

Shawn Walker  13:16
Maybe less homeopathic 

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  13:18
Western 

Michael Simeone  13:18
Western. Okay, yeah. Let me read a couple things to you, Dr. Bradley, and see what your response is. This is, this is from a very popular website.

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  13:28
Well, I'd like to say one other thing, actually. Talking about vaccines, I think, generally, the population of pet owners do go with the recommendation of their Veterinarian, and there certainly are discussions about lifestyle and risk because not every vaccine is recommended for every pet. For example, we're in the Southwest of the United States, and we do not see a lot of Lyme disease. And so, it is not something that I would recommend vaccinating dogs against Lyme disease, here. However, if I have a client who is going to be moving or traveling to the Northeastern part of the country, where this is an endemic disease, that is something that I would have a conversation with them about and say, 'Hey, your lifestyle and your risk is changing. This is a vaccine that we should consider'. And I think in the majority of cases when you have conversations about the risk and about why a vaccine is important, in general pet owners do believe in that and trust that you are making the correct medical recommendations, for their pet and they will elect to proceed with those vaccines. So I think back to your point, Michael, about kind of separating two different camps of pet owners? I think that there certainly are a group of people who are questioning just for the health of their dog and maybe even putting them into the camp of, you know, do I need to spend this money for all of these vaccines or not. And then you have another group of people who have maybe done research like you, Shawn, or are part of different Facebook groups or rescues or, you know, a little bit more involved with the pet ownership community. And I think that is where a lot of times there are a lot more opinions out there and a lot more strongly opinionated people.

Shawn Walker  15:42
So could you talk a little bit about the purpose of vaccines and maybe give us some examples of vaccines that might be required, or, and some vaccines that may be optional? And what does that mean when a vaccine is optional?

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  15:54
Yeah, that's a really good question to kind of set the the basis for vaccines. I think it would be beneficial to talk about dogs only just to have an easier understanding.  In dogs, typically, you have core vaccines, and then vaccines that are considered lifestyle. So for example, Rabies is a core vaccine. It is legally required in most, if not all, states and counties. But one point to that is the laws do change depending on where you live. So for example, just talking about cats for one second, in some places, Rabies is required for cats, as well. Here in Maricopa County, it is not legally required to vaccinate your cat for Rabies.

Shawn Walker  16:51
So all the dogs listening to this podcast are super jealous of the cats.

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  16:56
That might be might be one way to put it. Here here in Maricopa County, core vaccines that I recommend for every single dog no matter their lifestyle would be Rabies, which is legally required. And also Distemper/Parvo combination vaccine. And the reason why these are core vaccines is because the they protect patients against really serious disease processes. And another another point that I should make about veterinary medicine is it's not only about the health and welfare of our patients, but it's also looking at public health. So we have a duty to humans and public health as well. And so Rabies is is one of those things that it is a very serious disease for any animal. But Rabies is often times legally required because of the public health impact that it can have, if many of our pets are not vaccinated against Rabies. And it could spread to humans.

Michael Simeone  18:03
So this sounds like a really great breeding ground for misinformation, actually, because the decision making around vaccinating your animal, if you have an animal isn't necessarily straightforward. That it may vary from state to state or from region to region. And that some of these are optional, some of them are not. And then you're dealing in some other factors like the actual industry of veterinary medicine that people may have one orientation to or not. And this is something that we're going to see in some of the Facebook posts and articles that we'll talk about a little later. But it sounds like a tricky decision to make where you don't always have the best information and not always know where the best information is. Because I think sometimes people and you know, this shows up in the material, we'll talk about they assume that veterinary medicine has a motive to make money. And that that motive supersedes the motive to care and for public health. And so it seems like, put those factors together. And you actually have a really interesting opportunity for misinformation.

Shawn Walker  19:12
I mean, Michael, do we really have any problems? We have Google and then we have Web MD for pets? I mean, that's why do we need Veterinarians? Right? 

Dr. Kelsey Bradley
It's Dr. Google. Actually. 

Shawn Walker
That's Dr. Google to you. Okay, fair enough.

Michael Simeone  19:24
Yeah, I mean, there's there's all kinds of opportunities here too, because when anyone gets an animal, the, there isn't just a really straightforward guide for how to take care of them. I mean, one exists, but people don't always have access to that. And that's oftentimes mediated by different institutions that they may or may not trust.

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  19:41
Or no where to look. And so I think I think it's important to talk about those core vaccines that are very serious for the pet and possibly their owners as well. And then Shawn, like you were saying there are certain vaccines that may not be recommended for every patient and so the easiest one to talk about would be Bordetella, which is against the bacteria Bordetella, which is one of the organisms that can cause Kennel Cough, in dogs. For dogs who truly are not in contact with any other dogs, don't leave the house, they're not boarded or groomed or anything like that they don't go to dog parks. Their lifestyle does not have a lot of risk of them contracting Kennel Cough. And so maybe for that specific dog, that's not a vaccine that they need. And that is not a health risk to their owners if they are not vaccinated against it.

Shawn Walker  20:42
Because like going back to Rabies, for example. If the dog does not have it's Rabies vaccination, and say it bites someone, or is picked up by the County or Animal Services. Then that can have some pretty poor outcomes for the animal.

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  20:57
That, that is correct. And I think the other important thing to know about this is it's not only about the behavior of your dog, you may have the sweetest dog out there. And this is a conversation that comes up more commonly than others is 'My dog is really nice, he would never bite anyone', which may be true. But the other side of it is, what if a wild animal or even another dog for that matter, attacks your dog, and you do not know the Rabies status of that animal.

Michael Simeone  21:32
So it seems like this is a typical human move. You know, the animal world in terms of socialization and behavior and care is complex. But humans tend to assume that animals are simple, but animals are complicated. Their lives are complicated. The situations they're in are complicated and often times unpredictable. Just like people.

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  21:55
Sure, I think that there are many different things that go into decision making around vaccines and and lifestyle as well.

Michael Simeone  22:04
Well, boy, have I got some material for you, then. 

Shawn Walker  22:07
Oh no. 

Michael Simeone  22:10
I would like to read some material and get your Shawn and Dr. Bradley, I'd like to get your responses to this. 

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  22:17
Perfect .

Michael Simeone  22:17
And Shawn, you're gonna see some echoes of some other material that we've spoken about in the past. I'm confident of it. But here we go. Our dogs are in the midst of an epidemic. It's not an epidemic of viral disease, but of chronic ill health. They are besieged with itchy, pus laden, scabies skin, vomit and diarrhea are the norm. One in every 100 dogs suffers from epilepsy, and an even higher number lives with painful arthritis. Allergies are also reaching epidemic proportions. Dogs are becoming allergic to life. Now that is the first paragraph in a 20 paragraph essay. Dr. Bradley, Shawn, your thoughts.

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  23:08
So I think that there's a lot to unpack from that. Even just that one paragraph, I mean, all of the medical issues that they talked about in that paragraph are things that I see. It is not uncommon to see animals that are vomiting or having diarrhea, have epilepsy, arthritis, allergies. All of those are things that we see on on at least a weekly basis, depending on where you are. And I think it's important to look at where veterinary medicine has been in the last few decades. And also looking at the human animal bond that has developed in that same time period. It's important to note that animals are now more than ever part of the family. And because of that it is more common for these pets to come to a Veterinarian for issues that maybe would not have been recognized previously and say a dog that lives a whole life outdoors. Another point to that is with improved medical care not only going to the Veterinarian more often, but also with the advances in medicine, it is common for dogs and cats to be living longer. And so it's not unreasonable to think that more of these animals are having arthritis or, you know, we're seeing more diseases being diagnosed because they're coming to the Veterinarian more.

Michael Simeone  24:39
And so in some ways, it's as an effect of the advance of Veterinary Medicine and humans coming into closer proximity. We're seeing some of these things more, both because of increased attention and longer lifespan, but then those are being used as evidence that the veterinary medicine is actually not trustworthy at all.

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  24:59
Right. I think it's important to just say that those things aren't necessarily cause and effect.

Michael Simeone  25:08
Shawn, do you see, do you recognize some of these beats?

Shawn Walker  25:12
So I recognize a lot of these these same tactics. There was an ER doctor in New York, who penned a lengthy response to the plandemic videos. Not a positive response that, you know, this response as scientifically accurate response to plandemic and was trying to punch holes in in the arguments. And my favorite sentence in the response was, the plural of anecdote is not data. And I think, as you were saying, I think that there are examples of dogs that may have experienced all of these health issues. But just because one dog has a reaction, or one dog has a health issue, that doesn't mean its related to a vaccine. That also doesn't mean that the entire cluster is what every dog is going to experience. It's, you know, these few outlier experiences that have this sort of fear of appeal, especially to dog owners have, I have this, you know, my dog received a vaccine, then 24 hours later, my dog passed away, and then everyone is, you know, that's responding to that is like, 'Oh, we just needed, you know, this vaccine caused it' when, you know, it could have been completely unrelated to the vaccine, or someone leaves out the dog wasn't even receiving a vaccine at the time and just passed away for other reasons. But we've kind of created this story of anecdotes that we've joined together that actually aren't related.

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  26:28
And I think that's a really good point. You know, it kind of reminds me of the people who are more of the anti-vaxxer pet owners. I think, a lot of the evidence or so called evidence that they have or data that they share with others. I think that, in general, their heart is in a good place, and they truly do want what is best for animals and are trying to share that information with others. And I think in some situations, they may extrapolate from a case or two or take a one off situation and apply that to all animals. Or they may exaggerate certain things that may be true. And so, one, one example of that is going back to talking about Justice, and and you mentioned one thing about, you know, certain heartworm preventions being toxic, or, you know, not giving them that because it's poison. And knowing more information, which the general public typically does not have one of the ingredients in a popular heart worm preventive, can cause really serious side effects in dogs who have the MDR one gene mutation, those dogs, oftentimes our Collies or Australian Shepherds. When you first said that, I thought to myself, you know, actually, that comes from some version of true information. But it's saying, it's generalizing that to many more dogs than it's true for it. And the other part of that is the amount in heartworm preventives does not affect that gene anyway. 

Shawn Walker  28:14
And this is Aivermectin, is that correct? 

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  28:17
Correct. 

Shawn Walker  28:18
So for example, for me, that was scary. The first time I went to my regular vet, and we were talking about heartworm, and I was just like, wait, wait, wait, he's a Double Merle. He might have the MDR one gene like we can't do this. And that's like, that's don't worry. We have alternatives. And just having that conversation with the vet and being open. Then I started to understand this wasn't as scary as it at first seemed, or as some of the others in the in the Double Merle dog community had described as that it was, you know, any heartworm preventative, it's a death sentence. And I was a bit terrified. But then after talking to my vet, I realized, oh, now we understand with more information, we can handle this. And it's, it's actually not that big of a deal. 

Michael Simeone  28:57
What sticks with me at the end of this paragraph is the idea that dogs are allergic to life. Which reminds me of some, some themes and anti-vaxxer, rhetoric and misinformation. And some themes in some of the most recent stuff around COVID-19, which is medicine gets in the way of nature. And so therefore, because your connection to nature is severed, then you're just going to get sicker as a natural consequence. It feels like they're drawing from the kind of anti-vaxxer rhetoric and just dumping it right into the context of animals.

Shawn Walker  29:31
So it's kind of coming from the same well, in a way, but instead of being directed at children, it's being directed at our pets that if you know, Western medicine, in general prevents a dog's immune system from developing so then they'll end up being sicker than they would if we wouldn't have engaged with these vaccines or these different types of Western medicine. So I want to add another quote if I could, from one of the multiple Facebook pet groups and someone posted an article from sort of dog viral content site where they sort of post to ctue articles about dogs or bombastic articles about dogs. The headline for the article is 'Dog dies minutes after receiving vaccine at Vet. Devastated owners seeking answers'. And one of the responses or comments was a friend of mine’s dog that was perfectly fine was given a flu shot in quotes, because the groomer said the dog needed the flu shot before he could groom him. And he died a couple of days after never heard that dogs needed a flu shot, it was awful. These vaccines now are filled with so much toxins, beware. So I see this mention of vaccinations or sort of flu shots or other things and that they're just filled with toxins, too, therefore, they're more dangerous than the diseases that they prevent. So if we weigh that against, for example, say with Rabies, as with any medical procedure, human or animal, there's a risk of complications or potentially side effects. For example, but if we weigh the risk of a dog receiving Rabies and the impact of Rabies, versus the very small percentage possibility of having adverse side effects of the Rabies vaccine. How do you talk to, can I say pet parents or clients about that?

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  31:21
Sure, yeah, clients, pet parents. They're, they're one in the same. But yeah, and that's exactly the conversation that I do have with people is, you know, there is a risk. Here, it is very unlikely that we will see any of these side effects. These are the things that you should look out for. And if you see any of these signs, you should go to an emergency hospital right away. The question about ingredients in vaccines being detrimental in cats, we do know that there are certain vaccines that were created previously that had an Agilent. Which is the vehicle that the vaccines are delivered in, that caused a bigger reaction, when given to a certain percentage of cats. And in those, it would create a soft, a vaccine-associated sarcoma, which is a type of cancer. And so, you know, historically, that is a risk. And because of the knowledge of that vaccines have changed, it changed in the Agilent has changed as well. And that risk is, is really, really low.

Shawn Walker  32:37
So in some cases, as the vaccines have improved, it's hard to get away from some of the baggage of some of the adverse side effects that may have happened in the past.

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  32:47
Sure. And I think now more than ever, the term herd immunity is becoming more well known. And that's certainly true in the pet world as well. Not every pet can be vaccinated. There are certain animals that have diseases that make it unsafe for them to be vaccinated. But if the majority of the population is vaccinated, then the few who cannot be vaccinated are still protected.

Michael Simeone  33:18
Let's go back to some other material here because outside of the individual risks of vaccination it seems like there's more water in the well, when it comes to some of this misinformation around pet health and pet vaccine. I'll read some more. I'm back on Facebook now. And here's some more material. How long will your dog live? Probably not as long as you're hoping. Banfield Pet hospitals report the average lifespan of a 20 to 90 pound dog is just over 10.8 years. That's not very long. Look, if your dog is suffering from allergies, diarrhea, joint pain or diabetes, it's not your fault. It's because your vet has been taught that drugs and chemicals are the path to good health. He believes this because his education is sponsored and taught by the people who sell pet foods and drugs. Don't let your dog be a victim of greed. It's time to take back control of your dog's care. It's time to return him to natural health.

I think it's pretty remarkable that there is a distinctly masculinist populist anti-authority message here. Just talking about animals . So right and dogs do not but the dogs do not escape, whatever compound of like populism resentment, anti-science is kicking around the internet. This seems to me to be a manifestation of some of the same stuff. 

Shawn Walker  34:53
And I've seen this in other areas too similar to it when people are discussing dog food. People are  discussing going to different vets, you know, corporate versus holistic vets or those kinds of things. I've seen a lot of those arguments. And I guess we could also say, I guess dogs inherit the political beliefs of their pet parents who maybe in a way, so folks are kind of pushing those issues on to their animals as a way to continue to deliver that in you know, wider and wider communities.

Michael Simeone  35:22
Yeah, and there's this idea that, you know, all dogs are male, all clients are male, and all Veterinarians are male. And then there's this appeal to a natural strength that your animal ought to have instead, and that they're being sickened by, you know, like we talked about with plandemic and the America's top doctors video, that medicine is just too complicated. And it's getting in the way. 

Shawn Walker  35:44
If we just took our dogs to the beach, and they were allowed to the natural essence of the ocean in the sand, then they would need vaccines. Is that correct? Kind of like in plandemic?

Michael Simeone  35:53
What do you, Dr. Bradley, what do you think of this idea that nature is good for your dog? And that medicine is what's actually making it sicker?

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  36:03
I think that probably the people touting this belief have not seen a dog with Parvo Virus.

Michael Simeone  36:10
Could you say a little bit more about that.

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  36:12
Parvo Virus is a, an infection that goes to the intestines of infected dogs. And it is typically seen in puppies because their immune system is not robust enough to fight off the infection. It causes vomiting, diarrhea, dehydration, these dogs get really sick and become septic and die even with aggressive treatment. The thing about Parvo Virus is in dogs that are fully vaccinated, it is extremely rare to contract this disease. The main, the main thing I took from what you just read is about how greedy Veterinarians are and that is the most disheartening thing about certain opinions about this movement and about us being as a whole the veterinary field being bought by companies is. You will be hard, hard pressed to find a Veterinarian who their biggest goal is making money or supporting one brand or one vaccine. I want your dog to be vaccinated, and I want you to spend $100 or $200, for that to happen to protect them. If your dog gets Parvo Virus, the treatment will be in the 1000s. If we were truly in it for the money, that would be a better case.

Michael Simeone  37:41
Parvo Virus seems especially important for this idea that nature will make you healthier too, because of the way that you actually that that that a dog will actually get Parvo Virus.

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  37:51
So Parvo Virus is, is fecal oral transmission. What that means is that an infected dog will pass Parvo Virus in its feces, and another dog who comes around and sniffs or licks this feces feces, or even is licking around or sniffing in the dirt years after this Parvo Virus is laid into the ground. They then become infected.

Michael Simeone  38:22
So the idea of actually sending your puppy outside could literally make them sick or just by their contact with the outside because the outside it's laced through with virus particles.

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  38:32
Correct.

Shawn Walker  38:33
I'm just having a sad Parvo dog moment in silence.

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  38:38
Sorry.

Shawn Walker  38:39
As I volunteer at the shelter, a local shelter and, you know, we see puppies with distemper. We see dogs with heartworm, advanced heartworm, that sometimes we're unable to treat and when we can treat it, it is a really fun process for the dog. It's very lengthy. So I think of the fact that you know, heartworm preventatives, your regular interaction with a Veterinarian, and these vaccines are ways to prevent a lot of pain and cruelty that happens to animals that don't receive that care. So for me, I see a Vet as a Veterinarian as an advocate for me and my my animal. So I find it kind of confusing whenever folks are saying that a Veterinarian is trying to, you know, push these services. And I think your point that will actually if I wanted to make money, a vaccination is actually much cheaper than the treatment of some of these illnesses. I think that's a point that a lot of folks that are reading this sometimes online and be like, Oh, my Vet bill was so expensive. They don't realize that you're actually saving the money by these vaccinations rather than trying to, you know, wait, and if something happens, and then that treatment would be much more expensive.

Michael Simeone  39:50
If you're going after Veterinarians, as being profiteering off your animal's health, then it kind of fundamentally misunderstands why most Veterinarians go into veterinary medicine in the first place. Like I don't think if we had focus groups or broad surveys and asked Veterinarians, why take on, you know, so many years of schooling and so much student debt like, like physicians, and then go into practice, they would say it's part of my scheme to overcharge customers and make as much money as possible. There are paths of less resistance to just make a bunch of money other than victimize your dog.

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  40:27
And one thing I'll add on to that just as a little plug in, a little off topic. Ppart of this thought process that Vets are in it for the money and we don't care for the animals is, is really detrimental on the profession as a whole and compassion fatigue, which is becoming more well known in recent years, but I think still not something that the general public realizes is suicide in the Veterinary profession is higher than other professions. And a lot of it has to do with what you were just talking about Michael. The the guilt placed on Veterinarians and Veterinary staff, by pet owners, saying that we're just in it for the money when oftentimes the amount of debt that they have is very high.

Michael Simeone  41:23
So in some ways, you get the worst of both worlds, you get a ton of self sacrifice a ton of effort put in and, and also a ton of distrust, or not a ton, but oftentimes distrust or misunderstanding of the industry and at the same time being exposed to on a day to day basis, an awful lot of suffering on the part of animals,

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  41:44
Right.

Shawn Walker  41:45
Not to mention the urine and poop and other kinds of things that you probably experience on a more than daily basis.

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  41:53
Don't forget about anal glands. 

Shawn Walker  41:56
How could one ever?

Michael Simeone  41:57
Yes, we can't.

Shawn Walker  41:58
How do you ever get that smell out? That's probably a different podcast.

Michael Simeone  42:03
Well, let's, let's um, let's take not too hard of a turn. But I would like to. I would like to go through rapid fire. Just a handful of cures, put out there by some anti-vaxxer pet groups. And then Dr. Bradley gets your kind of rapid fire reaction. So are you ready? Okay. 

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  42:20
Yep. 

Michael Simeone  42:21
So a Rob Baltic amber necklace for the treatment of fleas.

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  42:30
I can't say that. I even know what a Rob Baltic amber necklace is. But I don't think that would work.

Michael Simeone  42:41
Slippery elm as a general cure-all.

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  42:46
If there's a product out there, claiming it can cure many ailments, it probably doesn't cure any, coconut oil would be in that camp.

Michael Simeone  42:56
Alright, berry powder. 

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  42:59
Never heard of it. 

Michael Simeone  43:01
Yogurt. 

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  43:03
I mean, yogurt has some some probiotic properties in there.

Michael Simeone  43:08
All right. There's one that I also want to look at for a second. 

Shawn Walker  43:13
I feel like with a amber I was thinking Welcome to Jurassic Park. You know, like with the amber necklace, or if you've ever been to Russia, there's a in the Hermitage. There's an amber room there. The walls are made of pure amber, like inches sticks, like basically pieces of amber slate. It's kind of crazy.

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  43:33
I bet there aren't any fleas in there.

Shawn Walker  43:35
I guess not. I mean, that would be an interesting test. I wonder what about amber causes fleas to want to go away? I mean, I would buy a rare amber necklace if it kept the scorpions away. Or right now the crickets and sewer cockroaches, but that's a different conversation.

Michael Simeone  43:51
Yeah, that's just that's this garden variety summer in Arizona. What about what about a raw diet? Or let me specify is a raw diet a substitute for a vaccine? What do you what do you think about the idea of a raw diet and an organic diet being a substitute for vaccination?

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  44:07
I actually have not heard of that before. There are plenty of people who do recommend or have their own pets on raw diets for a variety of reasons. Raw diets have the same risks to dogs as it does people. There's still the risk of things like Salmonella, and not only to the pet but, you know, to the pet owners. Many people like getting kisses from their dog and if your dog just got done eating raw food, they can probably transmit something to you.

Shawn Walker  44:39
Like yum.

Michael Simeone  44:40
Oatmeal baths.

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  44:41
So oatmeal baths can be beneficial in hydrating skin.

Shawn Walker  44:47
But you couldn't use oatmeal bath day in lieu of a Rabies vaccination.

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  44:51
Oh, no. 

Michael Simeone  44:54
What about liver tonic?

Shawn Walker  44:56
Are you reading like a snake oil salesman from the 1920s or something?

Michael Simeone  45:00
No, no, I'm just reading Facebook posts off a kind of natural anti-vax pet.

Shawn Walker  45:06
Like a doctor magic's magic liver tonic?

Michael Simeone  45:10
And I feel like there's a double standard, right I do we should I give the name of this magazine that I'm reading some of these remedies off of, because we mentioned the name of Plandemic and some of these other places. Should I mention the name of this place? 

Shawn Walker  45:23
Nah. No. I feel like unless it's a magazine, like Plandemic, a lot of people have heard of Plandemic, so we're referring to it doesn't necessarily force people because you.

Michael Simeone  45:37
So nothing on liver tonic, because you've never heard of liver tonic in the context of your education as a as a doctor, but

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  45:45
I have not. 

Shawn Walker  45:46
I mean, what about liver tonic of a specific animal at all? Would that help?

Michael Simeone  45:51
No, no, I think this is actually a product called liver tonic dizzy. And is it like a tonic water that you give your dog to help their liver?

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  46:00
Oh, I would be interested in learning what the ingredients are in there. There are certainly products out there that I recommend. And a lot of them are supplements, actually, that can help with liver health. So I will remain undecided on that.

Michael Simeone  46:16
It sounds like there's a good, there's a mixture here of stuff that sounds completely unfounded or unproven, some stuff that smacks of potentially helpful stuff. And then some other things like a Baltic amber necklace, that just feel completely wild. 

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  46:33
Yes. 

Michael Simeone  46:34
So what do we make of all of this, about there being a robot, like The Guardian in 2019, had a really interesting article about anti-vaccination and pets, where they interviewed Veterinarians, and they described it as a as a serious risk for the animals because the the animal's health is put into jeopardy because of the human human belief systems. The Guardian kind of framed this as of a piece with the rise of some kind of global anti establishment politics that included medicine and other kinds of medical institutions as things to be under assault and as things to mistrust. When we think about the presence of pet, anti-vaccination and these kinds of thoughts, where do you think the connection is Shawn with some of the things that we've been talking about with this podcast? Why is it important for people out there if they don't own a dog or a cat, or any other kind of companion animal? Why is it important to think through anti-vaccination movements or anti vaccination ideologies? Why is it still important to pay attention to this for an hour long podcast, for instance?

Shawn Walker  47:40
Besides the interest of the topic, just being sort of curious, but I think the reason why we're discussing it this week is because there are similar techniques. So oftentimes, we spend the podcast breaking down, what are the techniques? How do we, how do these campaigns create openings for mis and disinformation? How do they bring people in, and then lock people into the conspiracy theory or misinformation or rumor. So in many cases, looking at the animal, anti-vaxxer communities, they're using the same techniques that are used around COVID-19. And folks that are saying masks are ineffective. Or people that deny that COVID-19 exists. Or like QAnon in some of those theories. It's the same repertoire of techniques that just played out in a different community. So for example, in this case, we can see there's generalization. There's a use of anecdotes, or stitching together different anecdotes into one story that sounds really compelling was very emotional. This thing I did this, I gave this vaccination to my dog, then they died the next day. So vaccinations must be bad in general. And so that's a similar technique that is used in other places.

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  48:51
And and if I may interject, as a person who is not an expert in misinformation, I think another part of this is kind of a confusion of who is trustworthy, and what information is trustworthy. Because in many situations, when these conversations start the initial thoughts of a client about vaccines for their animal come from a person who is trustworthy, whether it be a friend, or a breeder who they got their beloved pet from, or someone else they're getting this information, as you say, that causes you know, a lot of emotion to come up and they trust that information, and then hearing other information from a different source can be confusing.

Shawn Walker  49:43
So, as you said, in many cases, we're receiving this information from a trusted friend, a trusted colleague, someone who has animals or a breeder, and how does someone take that information and then how might you recommend that someone evaluates that information to figure out. Is that true? Does that apply to my pet? What sorts of sources besides their Veterinarian, which I would imagine would be one of the best sources? What other sources besides a Veterinarian could someone use to try to determine whether that information is legitimate?

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  50:16
Well, you, you certainly took my my first recommendation, which is speak to your Veterinarian about it. And you can I love when people come to me with questions or concerns about something and really talk through what their concerns are, and why that may or may not be true. I think other resources that are good, especially for vaccines would be associations or groups who have a history of researching or having different studies about those specific questions. So in this case, vaccines, and looking to them for resources, and so in, in particular, for vaccines, aha, they come out with vaccine guidelines, and why you should vaccinate your pet for these specific diseases, depending on lifestyle and risk.

Shawn Walker  51:07
What about sources? Like, you know, there's a Web MD for pets? What do you think of those sources? And do you have any tips for maybe pet owners whenever they're going through those types of sites?

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  51:21
I mean, I think my default answer to these questions of going through different resources and trying to determine what is acceptable or what is true or not, would be talking to your Veterinarian about that.

Michael Simeone  51:38
I think one, one thing I think that we can ignore, about an opportunity for misinformation, and that's a piece of some of the things that we've been talking about is that the gender ratio of Veterinary Medicine, and that is, you know, we're looking at, you know, by some estimates, what 65%, maybe more of the veterinary workforce is, is is women, and that tends to skew young. That is, the women have a younger average age than the men who practice veterinary medicine. So when you look at it on average, that the veterinary technicians, the receptionists, the doctors are going to are more likely to be women. And when we talk about the source of some of these ideologies about mistrusting institutions, and trying to go with more naturalistic ways of thinking about medicine and treatment, then you start to think that, you know, a lot of the there's some baked in misogyny, here that is going to come into contact with a predominantly female field. And that is also going to be a contributing factor to the way that sometimes, depending on who you're talking to, they may view the the actual expert, as being less of an expert, and their male friend on Facebook, and what they experienced about their dog might actually be a better source of information.

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  52:58
I think that's an interesting point. And as far as, as women in the field, you're absolutely correct that the majority of Veterinarians and veterinary technicians and staff are women, and it is becoming more of a female dominated profession as the years go on. In addition to that, women are primarily the ones in, in small animal hospitals. So so that is to say that I think more males go into working with large animal than women do, although certainly both do. And I don't think that it's necessarily a decision made by clients. But it has certainly been seen by myself and other female colleagues, where a female doctor in a practice will talk to a client about certain recommendations, then male colleague will say the same thing, and maybe have different responses.

Michael Simeone  54:05
I feel like thinking through all of this, some of this goes back to the idea that we expect the animal world and the human world to be two different things. And we expect animals lives to be more simple or medicine for animals to somehow you know, human beings get to be more expert than the actual professionals with animal medicine. And what I'm getting at is, we normally don't think about animal medicine as being political. But it is clearly influenced by politics. And one thing that I take away from this conversation is that we tend to think about misinformation, at least at first blush as being something that's about politics. But misinformation, just like all kinds of political things seep down into all aspects of life for not just people but animals too.

Shawn Walker  54:54
And I think that if we think about the misinformation in this context, a lot of this originates not from a political stance, a place of animosity towards the other side. A lot of this originates from a care that people have of their animals and also a fear that if they choose the wrong treatment plan that they're going to cause have some sort of detrimental effect to their animal. And it's a reading to reading the stories that folks will find online about, well, this information is correct, this information is incorrect. But none of those contributors, like in a, you know, a Facebook group are Veterinarians, then you end up everything kind of goes off the rails because everyone's feeding into their fear of, well don't do that, because they'll hurt your animals. So don't do that, because it'll hurt your animal. And then we're left at this vaccines are toxic, and are going to kill your animal rather than they're actually really safe with low side effects.

Michael Simeone  55:49
So in some ways, you know, we're not seeing people say, put an amber necklace around your dog, hashtag q sent me. Instead, what we see are people who really want they want their animals to have a good life. But that combination of care, plus maybe a little bit of ignorance, plus some skepticism about certain institutions. Those things add up to a lot of misinformation around animals. 

Shawn Walker
A great way to sum up what I just said. 

Michael Simeone
Yes. All right. So any kind of Final thoughts as we round out this conversation? 

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  56:20
I guess, I would like to say I think, in general, many clients and pet owners out there exactly like you said, they want the best for their pet and want to do everything that they can to keep them as healthy as possible for as long as possible. And I think that in general, people do trust their Veterinarians and come to them with questions and an open mind. And I think, in this day of, you know, the Internet, and you know, anyone being able to publish whatever they want, it can make it confusing to navigate through all of that information. And I think that's where wires get crossed. I don't think that it's from people, you know, trying to do something that isn't what's best for their pet.

Michael Simeone  57:08
So in some ways, this is kind of a trickle down there. There are certain effects of actively political misinformation campaigns, like Plandemic. That just end up trickling down into other kinds of spheres to the point where some of the people influenced by this stuff or some of the core ideas aren't thinking malevolently, necessarily, but they are affected by it in directly or indirectly, just, they don't consider themselves soldiers of a particular cause directly linked up to kind of explicit political forces.  

Shawn Walker
Dr. Bradley, thanks so much for joining us today. I think this was an amazing opportunity to discuss misinformation in a different context. And also see some techniques in a potentially less political environment, where a lot of this misinformation actually comes from a fairly loving place where people want their animals to have happy and healthy lives. But in that search, there's a lot of confusing information that comes out that can be difficult to sort out or it can be very emotionally challenging for pet owners to hear sad stories and then be concerned if I do the same thing that's going to happen to my pet. 

Dr. Kelsey Bradley  58:13
Yeah, I think that's exactly right. And it's been really fun to think about this in terms of Veterinary Medicine. It's not something that I typically think about on a day to day basis. So thanks for having me.

Michael Simeone  58:24
For questions or comments, use the email address datascience@asu.edu. And to check out more about what we're doing, try library.asu.edu/data